Th!nk don´t start, Power Limit flashing, Temperatur-control-light is on

[Th!nkJB67]

Hi to all Th!nk enthusiasts,

Sorry for writing in english.

We´re so sad. Our beloved Th!nk with Li-Ion battery won´t start anymore. First issue was, the Th!nk did not charged.We removed the charging plug and the second time we put the charging plug in it seemed to charge. The next day charging was completed, but the Th!nk did not start and the temperature indicator light is on together with Power Limit flashing. We have never read about any problems with the coolant temperature in a Li-Ion battery Think. What can we do? Our Th!nk is a special one... Maybe a problem with the coolant-pump?
Du kan ikke vise dette vedlegget.Du kan ikke vise dette vedlegget.

[worry]

Hi,
That's a cool looking Think! 

Sorry to hear about your problem. It's not easy to diagnose from far away. You should try to get some sort of diagnose. But you probably have no such workshop in your area? You will need to be that workshop yourself. With some computerskills you can do it. The needed programs is available for free, but you need to manage install and using them. Some fairly cheap adapters is also needed.

Some thoughts:
I see your battery meter is way above 100%. Far more than normal. Could be an issue with battery management. Power limit lamp is often caused by problems with the battery.
The temperature alarm is probably coming from a measurement inside the PCU, not the battery. And a missing coolant flow could cause that. There is two pumps running in series. But the pumps is only running when the car is ON (green car symbol on the dash). I don't know if a temp alarm would need to be reset before the car will start.

[Th!nkJB67]

Hi worry.

Thank you!
The battery meter that high is normal at this car after full charging.

I have the peak IPEH-adpter (s.pic)

-I try pcanview yesterday, but no Error was shown.
-Today I hope to get commtool running.
-Checked all fuses, but none was broken.
-I posted a thread at facebook "The Think-Tank (Fans of the electric car TH!NK)"

[Th!nkJB67]

I did not get commtool running. Don´t know which .msf file is right...

But I managed to get some trace-files from pcanview and converted them in csv.

Maybe there is someone can tell me whats wrong with our Th!nk. Please.

[worry]

Hi again,
I'm not able to give support with trace-files, so I hope someone else chime in.

If you check out this thread "Think city Enerdel Lithium Ion tråden", message #10, you will see how the CommTool page should look like.

https://elbilforum.no/index.php?topic=44158.0

Choose MSF file Analog_1_8.MSF and Analog_9_16.MSF. (or 1_16 if it's there).

[Th!nkJB67]

Thank you worry.

I choose MSF file Analog_1_8.MSF and Analog_9_16.MSF. 1_16 is not there.

There are 4 pics for each .msf file, because commtool does not fit on the screen.

I also choose Analog.msf, Diagnostic1.msf and slave_comm.msf and can post the pics here
if necessary.

Can anyone tell me what is wrong with our beloved Th!nk.

Thank you in advance

[worry]

Well done! But sadly, you definately have faults in the battery.

I'm not able to explain every readout, but the main problem is easily seen.

The battery is divided into 16 blocks of cells. Each block has 24 cells. Two and two cells a coupled in pairs, and then you have 12 pairs coupled in series. You can see a voltage reading for every pair on your readout. There is one control card (RLEC) for every block. The RLECs is slavecards, reporting to a main card (MLEC), which again talk to the car. The RLECs report cell voltages and temperarures, and also do the balancing. High cells is drained through resistors to match lower cells. It is very important that voltages are equal. If everything is correct, they will be within 0,02 volts when fully charged.

The Enerdel cells in our battery should read between 2,5 volts (empty) and 4,1 volts (fully charged). So a reading outside that tells something is wrong.

The faulty readings you see in your scan is most likely caused by a faulty RLEC. And the most common reason for that is water in the battery.

You will need to remove the battery and open it. We can talk you through that, if you are uncertain how to do it.

If you are lucky, the only fault is the RLECs giving wrong readings. If you are unlucky, the cell voltages is way wrong. And could result in need of new cells.

To verify bad RLECs it is possible to move good RLECs around to check voltages. We are all in luck, because new RLECs can still be bought. I'm sure Myles Twete will chime in here. He still has some for sale.

[Th!nkJB67]

So eventually there is hope.

I have a hobby workshop with a car lift and lots of tools, but nothing specifically for electronics.

I have two old Mercedes cars, I work on normally.(1970 + 1993)

I need to think about whether I dare to try it. On the other hand, our Th!nk must be saved.

Thank you.

I'll get in touch as soon as I need help.

[Myles Twete]

It looks like you have 3 RLECs that are defective: RLEC 1, 2 and 5.

I still have many RLECs (new old stock) and can send you ones with CAN ID 1, 2 and 5 at a reasonable price.
With the right equipment, you should be able to pull the pack, then remove the pack top (24 nuts?).  Then you'll need to find and verify which RLECs are bad and confirm their CAN address (best to rig up a special cable for this and then run 1 of 2 Enerdel Apps which allow you to quickly see which RLECs are on the bus and which are bad.  Removing module assembly tops is easy enough and then you get to the RLECs.  Process of elimination will get you to the ones you need to replace, then you'll need to replace each with a new one with the same CAN address.  Once that's done, run the simple App again and verify it's all hunky dory.  If all is good and no cells look bad, then reverse the disassembly process, hook up the battery and test.  Supposedly you can plug the battery in to the car and test it before reinstalling it... Send a PM for details on any of this (like how to build the cable you need to talk to RLECs) and if you want to get replacement RLECs.

[worry]

You can do it. And Myles and others are here to help.

Forgot to mention; you should not wait too long if you want to save your battery.

Bad RLECS (and/or water) could drain cells if you are unlucky. I have seen it happen more than once. As I said, cells dropped below 2 volts should not be used.

The explenation is that dendrites could grow, which is like spikes that puncture the cell bag or make internal electrical shorts. Batteryuniversity.com is a good place to learn.

[Warlock]

 

The trace-files you provided also confirms the commtool diagnostics.

Under "Active Faults" one find:

06_Board_Under_Temp_Fault: Fault
27_Cell_Under_Voltage_A_Fault: Fault
29_Cell_Over_Voltage_A_Fault: Fault


The CAN messages from the Enerdel battery states:

Max_Cell_Voltage: 4.9 _Volts
Min_Cell_Voltage:   0 _Volts
BMS_Highest_Error_Reason: (18) Cell Over Voltage Fault _(dec)


All this indicates problems with, or reading error of, cells in the first half of the battery pack (1-8), which CommTool also found and gave more specifics on...


I also believe you can do it.
It is quite safe, and with the tools you have accessible this will be a relatively easy job.
We will support you all the way.


(I managed to tweak and open your CSV files i SavvyCAN, a program which, with som setup, makes wonders of decoding can messages. If you just share the trc-files next time, one can read them directly without needing to edit them )

[Th!nkJB67]

Thank you very much. 

First thing I have to do is to clean up my garage.
After this I will bring the Th!nk there and hopefully
get the Enerdel battery out of the car this weekend.

I'll get back to you then.

The journey starts... I am  a little bit nervous...

[Marsto]

Thank you very much. 

First thing I have to do is to clean up my garage.
After this I will bring the Th!nk there and hopefully
get the Enerdel battery out of the car this weekend.

I'll get back to you then.

The journey starts... I am  a little bit nervous...

Hi, I can tell you there is no need to be nervous...just careful....the people you just got messages from saved my car to, many years ago. It is still running,  but needs a new back axle. Wishing you good luck with the upcoming challenge to save your colorful Think City.

[Orla Pedersen]

It is still running,  but needs a new back axle.

Psst    Endnu en grund til at besøge Danmark.