Ladeproblem på P106 Electric

[CitroenSaxo2002]

Helge

Her er parametere lest inn i ettermiddag. Beklager formateringen, men det blir slik når jeg limer inn fra Google Sheets:

LVS = 3.3C (added this after reading the message from Steens)

   Value   Unit   
Supply         
Max supply current    10   A   
         
Battery         
Number of elements    100      
Nominal capacity    90   Ah   
Battery type   1      
Limitation temperatur inf.    48   C   
Limitation temperature sup.    53   C   
Cumulated time above limitation temp.    0   min   
         
Gauge         
Gauge   81.22   %   
Gauge max   90.2   %   
Gauge min   2   %   
         
Charge         
Voltage threshold (Ut)   163   V   
Reference temperature (Tref)   10   C   
Coeff Ut(T>Tref)   -0.3   V/C   
Coeff Ut(T<Tref)   -0.6   V/C   
Constant power phase max time   9   hrs   
Pilot meter   11   Ah   
Charge threshold for constant voltage phase   -10   Ah   
Fan duration after charge   0   s   
         
Normal Charge         
Overcharge current   7   A   
Overcharge coefficient   7   %   
Overcharge fixed quantity   0   Ah   
Balancing charge         
Overcharge duration   3.5   h   
Triggering period   240   Ah   
         
Maintenance charge         
Overcharge duration   5   h   
Overcharge current   10   A   
Water needed threshold   870   Ah   
Water fault threshold   950   Ah   
Initialisation charge         
Maximum temperature   48   C   
Maximum duration   12   h   
Current   10   A   
Pulse duration   5   min   
         
Fast charge         
         
Precharge         
Maximum duration   12   min   
Current   10   A   
         
Forbidden charge         
Duration   1.94   s   
Reference charge   60   %   
Temperature inf.    45   C   
Temperature sup.    42   C   
         
Ah counters         
Charge    90   Ah   
Overcharge    20   Ah   
Overcharge accumulated    4210   Ah   
Discharge   29230   Ah   
         
Driving         
Speed allowing max curent   5.3   km/h   
Speed starting limitation   81   km/h   
Speed allowing max lim   95   km/h   
Speed limit   99   km/h   
Limitation current (lim)   110.2   A   
Fan duration after driving   0   s   
Fan activation after driving   35   C   
         
Braking         
Brake light current   -40   A   Endret og funnet OK
         
Accelerator         
Minimum order   18.4   %   
Calibration offset   3.9   %   
Calibration time   10   s   
Maximum offset   40.8   %   
         
Motor         
Limitation temperature inf.    115   C   
Limitation temperature sup.   120   C   
Temperature limiting motor current   45   C   
Motorbrake current   75   A   
         
Power limitation         
Triggering time   1.92   s   
Voltage for 150A limitation   105   V   
Voltage for 100A limitation   95   V   
         
Cooling system         
Water temp. start (driving)   30   C   
Water temp. stop (driving)   25   C   
Water temp. start (charge)   30   C   
Water temp. stop (charge)   25   C   
Start cooling fan high speed   37   C   
Stop cooling fan high speed   53   C   
Threshold (charge)   35   C   
Threshold (driving)   35   C   
offset   5   C   
         
ECU         
Limitation temperature inf.   60   C   
Limitation temperature sup.   80   C   
         
Auto-discharge         
Rate   90   %   
Coeff 11 (<20C)   0.3   Ah/d   
Coeff 12 (>20C)   0.3   Ah/d   
Coeff 13 (>30C)   0.8   Ah/d   
Coeff 14 (>40C)   1.5   Ah/d   
Coeff 21 (<20C)   0.3   Ah/d   
Coeff 22 (>20C)   1.1   Ah/d   
Coeff 23 (>30C)   3.3   Ah/d   
Coeff 24 (>40C)   10   Ah/d   
         
Others         
Reference voltage coeff.   1      
CONS_CAL_BATT_HT   20   mAh   
UBATT_DCHARGE80_0A   101   V   
UBATT_DCHARGE80_200A   95   V   
IMIN_DCHG80   80   A   
Parameter file id   35      

[Steens]

Hello,

I have just been informed of that topic. Strange problem that should be investigated !

I can bring some precisions if it helps:

• The number of parameter, their meaning and the values are different according to the ecu version. So it is important to give the "Low voltage software version" in the "info" page when you report a problem because this could have an impact. If you could retrieve the LVS version for the ecu where the battery type was set to 10 this could be a good piece of information.
  
  Actually, regarding the information I had when developing the app, I know that the parameters are different for the LVS V3.01 and for V3.3C & V3.50 (By the way, I don't know if there exists other LVS versions than V3.01,V3.3C and V3.50).
  
  So, when you start Checkelec and enter the ecu parameter page, the app first requests the LVS version. Depending on the result, it adapts the parameter list. Be careful, if you have two cars with different LVS version and check the parameters on the first one and then check on the second one without closing the app, the app could probably display the wrong parameter list as it will not request the LVS version a second time but rely on the first result coming from the previous car (I say "could" because I don't remember exactly if I secured or not this kind of occurrence. In any case I didn't focus too much on the multi car usage). So, if there was a bad version identification, the wrong parameter list would display and the values would be read from wrong memory places (corresponding to the other version). This could probably lead to a totally incoherent list of values. I don't mean that this is the case you observed but this may be interesting to know.
  
  
• Another observation: I have personally a car with a lvs V3.50. My battery type is 3 corresponding to "NiCd augmented reserve". I don't know what it means but that's it.
  What could be interesting if someone has time, would be to try all battery type values and check each time what Lexia displays (in the Lexia "identification" page). This should be done on every lvs version because the list is probably different (at least between 3.01 and 3.3C/3.50). Note that just considering the value size, every value between 0 and 255 is possible to be sent. I don't know the range of valid values. The ecu knows probably .
  
  
• Regarding the sudden change of all parameters: some users reported that after changing parameters  and probably setting invalid values, the ecu blocked the car from starting and then restored a sort of default parameter list of values. This seems to be a safety mode for the ecu allowing to do a reset when the parameter set is invalid. Note that if this happens, a fault "Wrong parameters" is logged and you need to modify the value of the parameter "parameter file id" to clear this fault.
  
  


• Note also that the way Lexia performs a "telecodage" procedure and the way Checkelec modifies parameters is exactly the same ! I didn't invent a new way, I just observed Lexia and reproduced the protocol! The only difference is that Lexia sends the full list at one time where Checkelec allows to send only some parameters.
  
  


• Be aware that I could have had a bad understanding of the meaning of some parameters and then set erroneous titles. Particularly for those concerning the speed limitations and also the voltages for current limitation. So if you make experiments and find a better meaning, let me know I will change that.
  

All the cases you reported show that there are still things to understand regarding ecu parameters. I will follow this topic with attention .

[Elmo]

Note...
Remember.. When you do those "big" changes..
You must attach mains and charge for 2 min to store in ECU... See directions for remote programming in my previous mail.

Not just any charge, but Initialisation charge i believe ?!

[Elmo]

Batteri typen er et bit, kan være 1 eller 0.. (0=bly  1=nicd)

If this is correct (NB: I do not doubt it) and it is the LSB then value 1 (01) and 3 (11) are both indicating NiCd

[timescape]

Batteri typen er et bit, kan være 1 eller 0.. (0=bly  1=nicd)

If this is correct (NB: I do not doubt it) and it is the LSB then value 1 (01) and 3 (11) are both indicating NiCd

I see what you mean.. Regarding LSB..
I understood the Protocol like the values should be read 0 (0x) and 1 (1x). As the translated Value is T.O.R. (Boolean).
and can only be 0 or 1..

The Manual is on www.elbilwiki.no but the wiki is not working so i can not link.

I may of course have it all wrong

When my car messed up the Battery type was changed from 1 to 3 in Checkelec.
For checkelec battery type 3, Lexia showed "High capacity NI/CD"
That is why I figured that every Value over 1 in Battery type. means that something has gone wrong in parmeter memory location.

On my car I did a reset Ah counters with Lexia.. And it fixed/set my parameters to default Values..

Interesting to follow this thread

Br.

[timescape]

Note...
Remember.. When you do those "big" changes..
You must attach mains and charge for 2 min to store in ECU... See directions for remote programming in my previous mail.

Not just any charge, but Initialisation charge i believe ?!

Maybe I do not know what is right or wrong at the moment

The manual say "normal ladning"..

Br.

[Helge]

UPDATE!

Thanks to a very good suggestion from Elmo the car is now working fine again. Elmo mentioned that during a change between different charging currents (10, 13 and 14) there will be an overwrite of parameters so that was what I tried. With Lexia I changed from 10 to 13 A, then charged for a few minutes and did a test drive. The car worked fine with no 30 km/h speed limiting anymore!    I changed back to 10 A since that is what I can get in my garage and the car still works fine.

This "medicine" (changing charging current) worked so fine of my silver Saxo that I decided to try it on the P106 (that this thread originally was started for). That car suddenly this winter would no longer charge as it should on normal charge ...and guess what: Now the normal charge works fine on that car. Measured the whole charge cycle with Checkelec and it looks normal.

However on both car I noticed the same side-effect that I have seen twice before -> When changing charging current the energy meter changes status and show a wrong value after the change. Not a big problem since it corrects itself after a few charging cycles. Still a bit annoying.

Another thing! After changing the charging current with Lexia the battery type in the ECU is back to 3 in both cars!

I will doublecheck what ECU software versions I have but if I remember correctly this is 3.3 (both low voltage and high voltage) in both my 2003 Saxo's but I do not remember for the 2001 P106.

[Elmo]

The Manual is on www.elbilwiki.no but the wiki is not working so i can not link.

Jeg feilmeldte til web-admin, og nå er www.elbilwiki er oppe igjen

[Steens]

It was a lot more parameters that had changed by changing the battery type setting to 1. Scary!

I may have an explanation to what happened in that case. By a total coincidence it happened on my car today .

I wanted to check the parameters, started Checkelec and went into the parameter page while the app was linking with the car. When I entered the page all the parameter were totally incoherent. I went then to the "info" page and realized that the lvs version was identified as V3.01 ! I waited the refresh sequence to update the value that was soon displaying V3.50. Then I returned to the parameter page and all the display were correct.

I have to investigate the code to understand why the lvs version can be misidentified. It may be due to the fact that I entered the parameter page as the app was not yet linked to the car. But I can say that if you encounter that situation (all parameter showing incoherent values), do not change any value nor try to correct them. First go to the info page and check that the lvs version is correctly identified.

If you changed a parameter in the wrong configuration, you modified the wrong memory place corresponding to another parameter but associated to this parameter in the other ecu version. By doing this you will retrieve new incoherent values when restoring the right lvs version and the right parameter list. Just because you will now show the values you modified but linked to another parameter in this list. The value will also be different from the one you entered because the scaling is probably different for this parameter.

Hope my explanation is clear, in any case don't modify anything if most of the parameter values seem incoherent !

[Helge]

Hvor lenge var Adam i Paradis....?

Da er det igjen ladeproblemer på Peugeoten etter noen uker der det tilsynelatende har fungert fint fra da jeg fikk resatt en del parametere tilbake til det jeg vil tro er "default" ved å endre ladestrøm/styrke.

Har fått tatt god måling av ladeforløp med Checkelec og det som ser ut til å skje er følgende:
1. Normalt ladeforløp opp til ca 160 V og ladestrømmen blir da redusert
2. Lading med redusert strøm stopper alt for tidlig og lenge før spenningen igjen når ca 160 V

Faktisk var spenningen bare ca 146 V når lading med redusert strømstyrke sluttet. Hva kan dette skyldes? 

[elektrolux]

Ser helt normalt ut???

Bilen skal lade opp til 160V og så tilføre 10% overlading med 5A ladestyrke. Den skal ikke opp til 160V igjen.

[Helge]

Ser helt normalt ut???

Mulig ladekurven gjorde det, men energimeteret stoppet på ca 94 % 

[elektrolux]

Da kan meteret, eller rettere sagt  batteri og cpu være ute av synkronisering.

Retter seg selv etter neste opplading

[Pera L]

Hi everyone! As swedish guy Fredrik has nominated me as "Professional Besserwisser" I like to say something:

Battery type 1 is lead acid battery. Battery type 3 is NiCd battery. I was servicing swedish P106E -97 and 24000km driven (!) and there was battery type 1 in ECU. I did not changed it but the charging curve was not very good at the end of charging. So called overcharging time with normal charge was too short escpesially in cold weather.

One of the charger features is that if voltage stop rising then it stop charging after while. Purpose is to save other batteries in case that some block is broken. Clever.
There is in the charger two capacitors which compares voltage rising and I had two cases where they were broken. Then charging stops too early.

If I change the parameters with excellent Checkelec they keep in memory even the both batteries, drive and 12V are disconnected.
You can get back the original set by Lexia if you change net current for example. Remember put the car in charge after that, one minute is enough. If not then accelerator pot have sometimes wrong set up and car moving very slowly. Note that everything you have changed with Checkelec will disappear. Need to do it again. Change one parameter on time with Checkelec.

Really like to know what is battery type 2....

I have one Berlingo with three extra batteries, it means 30 batteries. Some rainy day I will test is it possible to change number of elements with Checkelec.

In the list of my heroes, Steens jump over Clint Eastwood long time ago.
Checkelec has been excellent program.

Best regards
Pera L

[pH03N1xM]

UPDATE!

With Lexia I changed from 10 to 13 A, then charged for a few minutes and did a test drive. The car worked fine with no 30 km/h speed limiting anymore!    I changed back to 10 A since that is what I can get in my garage and the car still works fine.

When you change the 10/13/14A parameters using Lexia or ELIT, then it will send all parameters to the ecu and change them to default.

Most annoying one, that the accelerator pedal default value (at least on when using with ELIT CD13 update) is 40%! You must press the pedal to half to start the car.
I guess You had problem with the throttle pedal settings.

Maybe Lexia set a lower value by default, since that one have newer software version, compared to my CD13 based ELIT.

Theoretically the ecu recalibrate the throttle pedal during a full charge period, however i never tried to verify it.

Anyway: checkelec is great - i lowered the limit voltages in my Partner's ecu (from 142/128V to 105/96V), hooked my Saxo's batteries from the charger port using a combo connector (AC+DC) to Partner and i was able to start the Partner using Saxo's batteries, without removing them from the car ;>

Battery type: I guess 0 is lead-acid, 1 is the the old type NiCd, with smaller reserve and type 3 is the NiCd with extra reserve.

I have battery type 1 on my Saxo. (my Saxo is really from the start from the production, ORGA 7343, (16/12/1996) - my Partner have type 3, that one is ORGA 7760.

The batteries with bigger reserve are since ORGA 7724:

http://xserver.dfmk.hu/~phoenix/SaxoElectrique/IncreasedreserveBattery.pdf