Elbilforum.no - driftet av Norsk elbilforening
Populære temaer => Ladeplasser og ladekabler => Lade hjemme => Emne startet av: Rozojc på lør 13. jan 2024, kl. 00:18
Hello. Apologies for writing in English; I've moved for work earlier this year so my Norwegian right now is not up to par.
The short story is I bought my first EV, and I also just recently bought a house. That being said, I am a complete ignorant in everything related to how anything electric works...
What I do "know" is that the carport (which is detached from the house and about 10-15m away) has a 16amp course that goes from the house fuse box to the carport where there is one light and one outlet... Am I correct to understand that something like the Amina 1 would work for me in minimizing installation costs and that it should be able to run from the existing 16 amp course and this would be allowed since it is a detached garage?
Also, and again pardon my ignorance: how "hard"/expensive would it be to replace that existing 16 amp course with a 32 one (replace it, not out in a new one)?
I appreciate any help!
Sitat fra: Rozojc på lør 13. jan 2024, kl. 00:18Hello. Apologies for writing in English; I've moved for work earlier this year so my Norwegian right now is not up to par.
The short story is I bought my first EV, and I also just recently bought a house. That being said, I am a complete ignorant in everything related to how anything electric works...
What I do "know" is that the carport (which is detached from the house and about 10-15m away) has a 16amp course that goes from the house fuse box to the carport where there is one light and one outlet... Am I correct to understand that something like the Amina 1 would work for me in minimizing installation costs and that it should be able to run from the existing 16 amp course and this would be allowed since it is a detached garage?
Also, and again pardon my ignorance: how "hard"/expensive would it be to replace that existing 16 amp course with a 32 one (replace it, not out in a new one)?
I appreciate any help!
To the last part first. Your electrician most likely needs to swap the cable to a new and thicker cable to cope with more amps, ands at the same time swap out the fuse in the fuses cabinet (sikringsskapet) to one suited for that amount of power.
If you have enough intake power, it shouldn't be a big deal, but electricians are not cheap, neither the materials needed. And if you have enough power in, wouldn't be much more expensive or time consuming to add a new outlet compared to upgrading the existing one.
Regarding installing a charger in a carport that is "free standing", it's allowed to share power with the one for the lights and the single output. I'm guessing you have to expect a cost of 2-3 K for the electrician and his time, cable and fuse box maybe in the same area.
Pulling a new cable in the same tube should normally be an easy thing, unless someone screwed up and made "impossible bends" or put other cables in the same tube. In worst case scenario, you may have to pull an new cable in a separate tube, and then cost could go substantially up, but cross my fingers, that doesn't happen to you.
As long as you don't plan on running a Renault with "issues" with IT/TT net, or you have TN-Net to your house, this should be a simple job to get everything up and running and with a legal setup.
Just note that if you have 3-phase TN Net, I would suggest you check with your electrician how much more to run cables for 3-phase, even if you set it up as a 1-phase at the moment. It only requires a different cable which costs a little more, and a fuse that supports 3-phase. It could save you a good chunk of money if you need to or want to upgrade later.
Also, consider 3-phase if your car supports it and you have TN-net. If you need charging for a second car, it's easier to have a "slave unit" on 1-phase while still having the option to charge on 3-phase from the master unit.
And running the charger on 3-phase for lets say 11 kW (3x 3,6 kW) rather than 11 kW on 1-phase, could give you as fast a charging, while at the same time keep you from crossing one or two levels of "effektavgift" (given I understand that part correctly). I guess someone will correct me if i'm wrong on anything here! ;)
Just be aware, Amina 1 doesn't seem to support that. You may have to swap to Easee or Zaptec for that type of setup.
Correcting my self here! Looks like it's total effect that determines "effektavgift", so 3-phase vs 1-phase doesn't really matter in that way.
ThaSitat fra: RJK på lør 13. jan 2024, kl. 02:09Correcting my self here! Looks like it's total effect that determines "effektavgift", so 3-phase vs 1-phase doesn't really matter in that way.
Thanks for all the info. I have to admit I don't understand any of the technical part. Can I ask you: how can I tell if my house has 3-phase TN Net? You know, without paying an electrician just to check this?
I also have no idea if my car supports 3 phase (or what that means 🤣). I have an MG 5 if that says anything?
Thanks you again, much appreciated!
Sitat fra: Rozojc på lør 13. jan 2024, kl. 10:36Thanks for all the info. I have to admit I don't understand any of the technical part. Can I ask you: how can I tell if my house has 3-phase TN Net? You know, without paying an electrician just to check this?
I also have no idea if my car supports 3 phase (or what that means 🤣). I have an MG 5 if that says anything?
You can hav a look at then number of cables to your main fuse. It should be five for 3-phase TN.
Your car supports three phase TN / 16A / 11kW charging.
Sitat fra: RJK på lør 13. jan 2024, kl. 01:51Also, consider 3-phase if your car supports it and you have TN-net. If you need charging for a second car, it's easier to have a "slave unit" on 1-phase while still having the option to charge on 3-phase from the master unit.
And running the charger on 3-phase for lets say 11 kW (3x 3,6 kW) rather than 11 kW on 1-phase, could give you as fast a charging, while at the same time keep you from crossing one or two levels of "effektavgift" (given I understand that part correctly). I guess someone will correct me if i'm wrong on anything here! ;)
Just be aware, Amina 1 doesn't seem to support that. You may have to swap to Easee or Zaptec for that type of setup.
Only Easee supports multiple chargers on one circuit, and it's debatable if this is legal or not. But it's a nice setup.
Sitat fra: turfsurf på lør 13. jan 2024, kl. 10:57Sitat fra: Rozojc på lør 13. jan 2024, kl. 10:36Thanks for all the info. I have to admit I don't understand any of the technical part. Can I ask you: how can I tell if my house has 3-phase TN Net? You know, without paying an electrician just to check this?
I also have no idea if my car supports 3 phase (or what that means 🤣). I have an MG 5 if that says anything?
You can hav a look at then number of cables to your main fuse. It should be five for 3-phase TN.
Your car supports three phase TN / 16A / 11kW charging.
This is in Norwegian, but you can run the article in google translate by copy-paste the link in the field for the text you need translation for (or run it in chrome browser, and it may give you direct translation according to your settings). Very good article about the differences, and how you can find out in the "sikringsskap".
https://www.naf.no/elbil/lading/1-fas-3-fas-elbil-lading-enfase-trefase
MG 5 EV has support for 11 kW on AC, so that means support for 3-phase on TN-Net.
https://elbil.no/elbiler/mg-5-electric/ (https://elbil.no/elbiler/mg-5-electric/)
Thanks so much for all the help. I read in the website shared that "If you have a 230 V IT network - the old power network that is widespread in Norway - you have to make do with single-phase charging"
So it seems this is what I really need to find out. If I can only do single phase, then the Alina 1 sounds like a good option. Otherwise, then something like Zaptec.
Does this make sense?
The house was built in 2011, not sure yet if it is 230 V IT or if that was not used at the time 🤔
TN vs IT is (mostly) about when the transformer substation covering your area was installed, not the house itself. Thus even a new house in an established housing zone is likely to get IT.
If you have TN, your main breaker panel (sikringsskap) should have a red sticker on the door, saying "400V TN-S" or similar.
Sitat fra: Rozojc på lør 13. jan 2024, kl. 13:30Thanks so much for all the help. I read in the website shared that "If you have a 230 V IT network - the old power network that is widespread in Norway - you have to make do with single-phase charging"
So it seems this is what I really need to find out. If I can only do single phase, then the Alina 1 sounds like a good option. Otherwise, then something like Zaptec.
Does this make sense?
The house was built in 2011, not sure yet if it is 230 V IT or if that was not used at the time 🤔
Sounds like a good strategy. Even in new builds, it comes down to what is in the area, or if this is an totally new housing project (new field of houses) where they had to set up a grid connection for this area. Often, they keep using IT rather than change anything if the grid is "stuck" with IT, and the cost of TN becomes to much.
You can post a picture of the "sikringsskap" in here, and also the table on the inside of the door that explains what the different fuses controls (can blind out your meter#), and we can try identify this for you. Or try to notice if your "sikringsskap" has the red or blue sticker om the door, as noted in the NAF-link I posted. May be they didn't start with those stickers yet in 2011.
A 'simple' Amina 1 phase at 16A will do you just fine. We have one 20A circuit with two charging boxes, i.e. 4.5 kW, and it is plenty for 2 EVs. It is allways nice to have more "oohmp", but if you are privileged with your private carport/garage and can leave the car charging over night you will probably find it sufficient. Off course, if you drive a very long distance every day, it may not be for you.
@RJK: Just to be picky :-)11kW is not for 1-phase, normally, is it? (Earlier Zoe and trucks, maybe)
Sitat fra: Erik Ola Ulvestad på lør 13. jan 2024, kl. 21:34SNIP
@RJK: Just to be picky :-)11kW is not for 1-phase, normally, is it? (Earlier Zoe and trucks, maybe)
No, I say 11 kW support tells us it has support for 3-phase, meaning you don't get 11 kW on 1-phase.
That said, early Zoe's supported 64 A to give AC charging, but that still required 400V 3-phase. Though in Norway, we have never supported that much amps, or at least not for private homes.
https://www.elbilgrossisten.no/en/products/renault-zoe-r210-2012-2014 (https://www.elbilgrossisten.no/en/products/renault-zoe-r210-2012-2014)
Sitat fra: Erik Ola Ulvestad på lør 13. jan 2024, kl. 21:34A 'simple' Amina 1 phase at 16A will do you just fine. We have one 20A circuit with two charging boxes, i.e. 4.5 kW, and it is plenty for 2 EVs. It is allways nice to have more "oohmp", but if you are privileged with your private carport/garage and can leave the car charging over night you will probably find it sufficient. Off course, if you drive a very long distance every day, it may not be for you.
@RJK: Just to be picky :-)11kW is not for 1-phase, normally, is it? (Earlier Zoe and trucks, maybe)
Thanks.
And if only connected at single phase 16 amps, is that enough power to have the car preheat the battery (or the inside) while plugged in without decreasing battery charge? Hope the question makes sense ...
I do to feel that if I can charge it overnight then 16 amps would probably be enough as I don't have to charge it every night anyway due to low usage.
Sitat fra: Rozojc på søn 14. jan 2024, kl. 08:23And if only connected at single phase 16 amps, is that enough power to have the car preheat the battery (or the inside) while plugged in without decreasing battery charge? Hope the question makes sense ...
Most cars draw more than 3.6kW (16A) when preheating for a short while, but it won't cause too big a drop in SOC. I wouldn't worry.
Sitat fra: Rozojc på søn 14. jan 2024, kl. 08:23Thanks.
And if only connected at single phase 16 amps, is that enough power to have the car preheat the battery (or the inside) while plugged in without decreasing battery charge? Hope the question makes sense ...
Your MG-5 has a heatpump that is efficient for heating the coupe. I do not know if it does any battery preconditioning if you have a depature timer set in the nav system.
My LEAF typically draws 3+kW for heating while driving during winter. These cold days I have even seen 4kW. But preheating only draws 8-12 amps, that I have observed so I guess there is a portion pulled from the battery as well. But you can compensate for this by heating for a longer time. As the car heats up it will pull less power for heating and eventually refill the battery.
Depending on your nav system features you can either set a departure timer and let the car handle the rest, or you can start heating via mobile app, scheduled preferably, early enough for your departure to be warm and cozy :-)
I guess it comes down to wether you want to optimize for lowest kWh and/or peak kW (I.e. cost of energy bill) or maximise driving distance at any cost.
By time you will find that you probably do not need 100% charge every day.
Sitat fra: Erik Ola Ulvestad på lør 13. jan 2024, kl. 21:34A 'simple' Amina 1 phase at 16A will do you just fine. We have one 20A circuit with two charging boxes, i.e. 4.5 kW, and it is plenty for 2 EVs.
But if it is important to stay below a "Effekttariff" step, Zaptec may be better (with Tibber for instance). Staying below 5kWh/h could mean close to 2000 kr/year saved.
Ok, some updates. We are definitely on a 230 system. Which I understand means anyway we can only do single phase.
The electrician came and checked and said he is not sure if he would be able to put a 32 amp cable through the same pipe that the existing 16amp cable is using. This means that if I want that, it looks like we would have to dig up a new hole which he suggested should not be done now, but in the spring/summer... And it would be much more expensive.
Another thing he mentioned is that our electricity capacity right now is 50 amps, which means that if we were to put in a 32amp charger we would most likely need to request for an increase in the capacity plus also installing an additional hardware to monitor how the charge is distributed to avoid the fuse tripping when too many things run at the same time... And this again would increase the price a lot...
The other option he gave was running the charger at 16 amps on the same cable that is right now, but he says that in order to do so, he would need to install a smaller "fuse box" in the garage separating the charger and the existing lights/outlet that are there... Does this make sense or is he just trying to create more work for him?
Haven't noticed any changes in the rules/regulations that he needs to install a fuse box/splitter in the garage, but then again, I dont have access to the full NEK400 guidance book. So it may have been altered somewhat.
About increasing to 32A, he's probably on target. It's different regulations in different areas, so it's kind a up to the "nettleverandør" or power plant company to decide if they accept 32A. But you would obviously have to increase the totale intake to give way for 32A when your total is a bit to low for that.
I'd stick to 16A and be happy with that for now. The very few times you need faster charging time, it shøuld be OK to use a fast charger to top load or when your juice goes low (and battery is for sure warm enough).
Sitat fra: Rozojc på tor 18. jan 2024, kl. 11:35Does this make sense or is he just trying to create more work for him?
It make sense, and smart to. We have an CEE-contact as an alternative to that, which was legal installation some few years ago.
The fuse box make it more flexible for other use when you don´t charge.
If your carport/garage is truly standalone, i.e. it does not share constructional parts that otherwise could be used as a path for new cabling, then a special exception exists in the regulations, (as stated by RJK in post #1) allowing installation of an wallbox on the existing circuit, if accepted by you as the installation owner and user. That is, if overloaded, when you plug in the vacuumer, high-pressure washer or whatever while also charging your car, you are the only one that will suffer and you are able to take action and remedy this quickly. Only simple lights, door opener and an immediate outlet is allowed, no freezers or other equipment on this circuit.
Have your electrician check out https://www.trainor.no/forum/forskrifter-og-normer-dsb/billader-i-frittst%C3%A5ende-felles-garasje
But, if he insists on a small cabinet for breaker, etc it should be of no great cost.
Thanks again to everyone for all the valuable information!
I will just have the Altima installed, with the additional fusebox for flexibility.
The one last thing I was wondering, and maybe it is a stupid question. What would be the difference between doing this instead of just using the "emergency charger" connected to the outlet in my garage which comes from exactly that same 16amp course? The reason I am asking is simply to know whether I can use the emergency charger for a month or two and wait to do the installation for a bit (since it costs a bit more with the fuse box and such).
Your emergency charger is normally only good for 10A or 12A, so charging will be slower. The "box" on those chargers are a bit heavy for the outlet, so in case your'e using that, find a way to hang it, so the stress of the weight is minimal. If not, you may be weakening that one over time, and that could lead to damages.
Also be aware, in case of fire, you probably will be held responsible if they find that your'e using this as your regular home charging solution. Unless this point is set up specifically for EV charging according to older versions of the NEK400, this is simply not allowed.
You can always argue that it is in fact emergency charging, if your electrician cannot be booked sooner or there is delivery problems. But as soon as you choose to postpone it because of economic situation, this will be ignored. And it is a bonus that the outlet is kind of new.
Beeing a bit careful, like pulling out the emergency charger while at the same time holding back the outlet box and hanging up the box on the emergency charger to reduce the stress, will probably work just fine for a time.
Also checking the cable on several points to check for heated cable is advisable. And if the cable, or the charger gets warmer than your hand likes, try adjusting it to even lower amps. Most chargers of this kind, have 2 or three available steps. Mine is selectable in steps of 8, 10 and 12A.
Just beware that you do this at own risk, and the cost if a fire appears, could be many, many times more costly.